'hotlist' improperly stored in config

[mooffie]

The 'hotlist' file should be stored in data (~/.local/share), not config (~/.config).

[andrew_b]

Branch: 3687_hotlist_in_data_dir
changeset:21d69af20bcf92b5190b678982db25f4ff7bf41d

[andrew_b]

Merged to master: [4095a04a92093017e5ff12a3942929e66466b550].

[gv]

Really, move hotlist? Why???

The user choose that will be in that file not mc. It's not like the other files in .local/share/mc: filepos or history or others. If I remove .local/share/mc (and I do on logout) those two files will be re-created the first time mc is started again. Now I will lose _everything_ added to the hotlist file.

Please reconsider this.

[mooffie]

Replying to gv:

Really, move hotlist? Why???

You didn't really explain why not. Try again.

The user choose that will be in that file not mc.

Right. Can you point us to a document explaining why this is not "data"?

If I remove .local/share/mc (and I do on logout) [...]

Are you the user who asked on the mailing-list how to have a "private profile"? If so: for the same reason you delete the history and filepos (supposedly they contain sensitive information) you also have to delete the hotlist.

[egmont]

@mooffie: Just wondering, shouldn't panels.ini's [Dirs] section also be moved similarly?

[zaytsev]

I guess he'd argue that it's not pre-shipped data, but rather configuration. To be honest, I'm confused now. The concept of pre-shipped data in .local/share doesn't make sense to me anyways. Probably really need to look up XDG & FHS...

[gv]

Replying to mooffie:

You didn't really explain why not. Try again.

If a file can/will be edited by user is a _config_ file.

Are you the user who asked on the mailing-list how to have a "private profile"?

No.

If so: for the same reason you delete the history and filepos (supposedly they contain sensitive information) you also have to delete the hotlist.

history and filepos can be/are a privacy concern. hotlist, not so much.

[egmont]

Good ol' days when everything was under ~/.mc :)

[gv]

Replying to egmont:

@mooffie: Just wondering, shouldn't panels.ini's [Dirs] section also be moved similarly?

100% no. I change a lot of settings in that file.

[egmont]

"a lot of settings" - my question clearly addressed the "[Dirs]" section only, not the entire file, which has only two entries.

[gv]

Replying to egmont:

"a lot of settings" - my question clearly addressed the "[Dirs]" section only, not the entire file, which has only two entries.

OK. Sorry.
Still, current_is_left is in that section. Some prefer the to have-it to the left. Some to the right. Is not a configuration option? Or you propose to move only other_dir? And some people will want to change that too.

[mooffie]

Replying to gv:

Replying to mooffie:

You didn't really explain why not. Try again.

If a file can/will be edited by user is a _config_ file.

Could you please link to some article explaining when to use ~/.config and when ~/.local/share?

[zaytsev]

​https://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html
​https://ploum.net/207-modify-your-application-to-use-xdg-folders/

[mooffie]

I've read these two before.

Replying to zaytsev:

​https://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html

This one isn't helpful: it doesn't say much about the nature of the files within the two dirs.

​https://ploum.net/207-modify-your-application-to-use-xdg-folders/

This one gives a very strong case for putting "hotlist" in data. Is this article reliable?

An aside: personally, as a user, I see all MC's files --except ini and panels.ini-- as data. MC is a kind of application which exists for its configuration. The configuration is the data. So I'm confused too, because I don't see how to distinguish between the two.

Should we ask @ossi to chime in?

[gv]

Replying to mooffie:

This one isn't helpful: it doesn't say much about the nature of the files within the two dirs.

Seems pretty clear to me:

$XDG_DATA_HOME defines the base directory relative to which user specific data files should be stored. If $XDG_DATA_HOME is either not set or empty, a default equal to $HOME/.local/share should be used.

$XDG_CONFIG_HOME defines the base directory relative to which user specific configuration files should be stored. If $XDG_CONFIG_HOME is either not set or empty, a default equal to $HOME/.config should be used.

[mooffie]

User @gv was not able to articulate an explanation for why hotlist should be put in "config".

So we need outside opinion(s).

Let me restate the question: what sort of files are put in "config"? and what sort in "data"? (by "config" and "data" I refer to $XDG_CONFIG_HOME and $XDG_DATA_HOME.)

So, who should we turn to?

I think we should decide on this before 4.8.19 is out.

[gv]

Replying to mooffie:

User @gv was not able to articulate an explanation for why hotlist should be put in "config".

Look, I waste too much time on this. Do whatever you want. I don't care anymore. On my systems I will revert the patch anyway.

[zaytsev]

Look, I waste too much time on this. Do whatever you want. I don't care anymore. On my systems I will revert the patch anyway.

This was an honest question, and instead of explaining your line of thinking you choose to copy & paste the standard which has already been referenced above. It's good to know that you don't care though, because this means that if we don't come up with a reason to move the hotlist back to config, we can eventually close this as wontfix and nobody will object.

[egmont]

Replying to mooffie:

what sort of files are put in "config"? and what sort in "data"?

After taking a quick glimpse at the docs, it's unfortunately pretty unclear to me.

I think we should decide on this before 4.8.19 is out.

IMO the worst is if we make a release with the change, and revert later.

If we have a clear answer soon (before the 4.8.19 release, which, as I see, you'd like to get out pretty soon) then sure let's go for it.

If, however, we need time on this (further opinions and research), I don't think it should delay the .19 release. I think in that case we should revert it for the time being to buy us some more time. It's not a big deal if the change doesn't appear in .19 but is delayed to .20 or .21 or so.

[mooffie]

Replying to gv:

Replying to mooffie:

User @gv was not able to articulate an explanation for why hotlist should be put in "config".

Look, I waste too much time on this. Do whatever you want. I don't care anymore.

Let me summarize the incident:

1. You came here making a claim ("If a file can/will be edited by user is a _config_ file").

2. While your claim wasn't clear, we didn't reject it outright. I asked you, 3 times, for a source backing it up, or for a more substantial explanation.

3. You failed to provide any source. You ignored my calls.

4. You also wasn't able to educate us yourself about the difference between "config" and "data". We were waiting, and still are, for the lesson. Really.

5. Just because "hotlist is config" makes your personal circumstances ("If I remove .local/share/mc ..") a tad more convenient doesn't mean it's correct.

6. You used the following as your only methods of proof:
   • Feigning outrage ("Really?", "Why???").
   • Condescension ("Seems pretty clear to me").
   • Playing drama queen ("Now I will lose _everything_").
   • Using unconvincing subjective opinions as support ("hotlist, not so much.")

[mooffie]

So, we need to decide if we revert it before 4.8.19.

@egmont is effectively in favor of reverting this, "to buy us some more time".

Surprisingly, I'm leaning toward reverting. Not because @gv managed to convince me of anything (the ​document @Yury linked to makes a strong case for "hotlist is data"; the only problem is deciding how "authoritative" that document is) but (1) because I don't have the definition of "config" vs "data" (per XDG's thinking) and (2) because 4.8.19 needs to come out. We can always re-commit it later.

So, @Yury, what do you think? @Andrew?

[zaytsev]

The problem is, I don't have a strong opinion on this issue, and I share the feelings of Egmont that the standard is not particularly clear on that. I'm personally actually leaning towards saying it should be rather stored in 'config'. The rule of thumb that I would use, is to compare those with FHS layout, where config ~ /etc and data ~ /usr/share and cache ~ /var/cache . I feel like stuff configured via files or GUI should be in ~ /etc and stuff life history, file positions for editor, etc. should be in ~ /usr/share (although already here, the analogy starts breaking down).

Now the question is, does hotlist feel more like edit widget history, or like something configured via the GUI? It seems to me, that you feel more like it's an edit widget history, and thus say it's data, and I feel more like it's configuration even though it's done via GUI, and so it's ~ /etc. I actually configure hotlist every time on clean $HOME to include my favorite jump points (root, $HOME and few others), and then never change it afterwards.

I linked the article because it's the best one I've found which presents a strong opinion, lacking a strong opinion of my own. As to how authoritative is it, I think it's just another voice in the desert, and other people might have simply never bothered with writing a blog entry :-)

If you are leaning towards revert, even temporary I'm leaning towards agreeing ;-) because, as I said, I'm leaning toward saying hotlist is config in the first place. If this saves us another shit storm, the better. But I didn't protest when Andrew committed it, because my opinion is not strong. I can live with either decision, but I'd like to see a plausible argument behind it. I think the argument that I presented is plausible, but if I understood yours correctly it's plausible as well. Oh well, shall we toss a coin :-) ?

[zaytsev]

Replying to mooffie:

Let me summarize the incident:

If I were you, I wouldn't bother (anymore), unless, of course, you take pleasure in it, or you have a particularly robust nervous system. As I was younger it wasn't that bad, and sometimes even fun, but in recent years I noticed that the negative communications are affecting me too much and I often can't get myself to do something I wanted to do, just because of some kind of internal resistance to coming back to the topic caused by past negative communications. I'd hate it if the same happened to you eventually, that's not going to be good for anyone. In the mean time, I figured that apparently the way to take least mental damage in the process is to simply shut yourself off after a certain threshold has been crossed, unless the matter is of vital importance. So, be careful to not to overstrain yourself. Peace.

[mooffie]

(I'll do the revert on Sunday then. For lack of time (guests are coming) I can't write anything more right now, sorry, but you did write some good stuff ("I configure hotlist [...] and then never change it afterwards" -- I seldom change it either. "internal resistance to coming back [...] caused by past negative communications").)

[zaytsev]

Reverted: ab4fcb6d300f5905c3a48a7620d1c60abcc36e30 ; I hope you don't mind, I want to try building an RC now.

[ossi]

imo, the revert was the right thing to do, but the case is indeed borderline.

"config" is inherently meta (it just changes the behavior of the software). it tends to be small and legible.
"data" is the actual content that results from using the software.

so categorizing hotlist as config seems about right.

[zaytsev]

I would say we close it as wontfix? I hope nobody objects.